From robfitz at 273k.net Thu Aug 2 11:24:40 2007 From: robfitz at 273k.net (Robert Fitzsimons) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 12:24:40 +0100 Subject: Posible project Message-ID: <20070802112440.GD32733@localhost> Hi Did any of you see the possible project on the ProjectManager wiki page? http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ProjectManager I'm not sure what the etiquette is with regards to contacting a hardware vendor like this. Any project manager want to follow up on this? Robert From w3nlb at amsat.org Thu Aug 2 23:40:22 2007 From: w3nlb at amsat.org (w3nlb at amsat.org) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:40:22 -0400 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070802112440.GD32733@localhost> References: <20070802112440.GD32733@localhost> Message-ID: <46B23326.17610.6B8231@w3nlb.amsat.org> Hi, I would suggest the following: Any manager desiring to undertake the project should post a reply on the Wiki page, then contact the OEM via email and pursue the project. A follow-up post on the Wiki would let others know of the project was proceeding or not. If not, a comment could solicit other managers to pursue it. If the project becomes active, another comment to that effect on the Wiki page would be appropriate, as would a completion notice. I don't think it's appropriate to discuss too much OEM-privileged information on the Wiki. Basic status is fine, but the Wiki is a more public forum than many OEMs would like to use. Just a thought. Leigh > Hi > > Did any of you see the possible project on the ProjectManager wiki page? > http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ProjectManager > > I'm not sure what the etiquette is with regards to contacting a hardware > vendor like this. Any project manager want to follow up on this? > > Robert > > _______________________________________________ > prjmgr mailing list > prjmgr at linuxdriverproject.org > http://driverdev.linuxdriverproject.org/mailman/listinfo/prjmgr From robfitz at 273k.net Fri Aug 3 00:42:15 2007 From: robfitz at 273k.net (Robert Fitzsimons) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 01:42:15 +0100 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <46B23326.17610.6B8231@w3nlb.amsat.org> References: <20070802112440.GD32733@localhost> <46B23326.17610.6B8231@w3nlb.amsat.org> Message-ID: <20070803004215.GC26235@localhost> Hello Leigh Sounds like a good idea. Would you be willing to making the initial contact? I haven't seen much activity recently (ever), and I'm more interested in the a development role. Robert On Thu, Aug 02, 2007 at 07:40:22PM -0400, w3nlb at amsat.org wrote: > Hi, > > I would suggest the following: > > Any manager desiring to undertake the project should post a reply on > the Wiki page, then contact the OEM via email and pursue the project. > > A follow-up post on the Wiki would let others know of the project was > proceeding or not. If not, a comment could solicit other managers to > pursue it. > > If the project becomes active, another comment to that effect on the > Wiki page would be appropriate, as would a completion notice. > > I don't think it's appropriate to discuss too much OEM-privileged > information on the Wiki. Basic status is fine, but the Wiki is a > more public forum than many OEMs would like to use. > > Just a thought. > > Leigh > > > > Hi > > > > Did any of you see the possible project on the ProjectManager wiki page? > > http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ProjectManager > > > > I'm not sure what the etiquette is with regards to contacting a hardware > > vendor like this. Any project manager want to follow up on this? > > > > Robert > > From greg at kroah.com Fri Aug 3 03:57:46 2007 From: greg at kroah.com (Greg KH) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:57:46 -0700 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070803004215.GC26235@localhost> References: <20070802112440.GD32733@localhost> <46B23326.17610.6B8231@w3nlb.amsat.org> <20070803004215.GC26235@localhost> Message-ID: <20070803035746.GA2054@kroah.com> On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 01:42:15AM +0100, Robert Fitzsimons wrote: > Hello Leigh > > Sounds like a good idea. Would you be willing to making the initial > contact? I haven't seen much activity recently (ever), and I'm more > interested in the a development role. It's odd that they posted there, as they did send me an email too :) Anyway, I have been slacking on this for a while, so if someone wants to volunteer to take this company on, that would be great. I can forward you my email thread with them, and introduce you to them. Any volunteers? thanks, greg k-h From w3nlb at amsat.org Fri Aug 3 04:58:42 2007 From: w3nlb at amsat.org (w3nlb at amsat.org) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 00:58:42 -0400 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070803035746.GA2054@kroah.com> References: <20070802112440.GD32733@localhost>, <20070803004215.GC26235@localhost>, <20070803035746.GA2054@kroah.com> Message-ID: <46B27DC2.31989.18EFC48@w3nlb.amsat.org> Hi Greg, My concern with this one is that it's extremely high-tech. These guys are presenting papers about supercomputers and such. Testing would require significant resources in the form of RF signal generators and possibly protocol simulators. I expect their frequency range would exceed 20 GHz. This is a pretty potent environment. I'm familiar with the technology and the end-user products, and I have significant expertise in RF environments. That's why I'm worried about the project. Leigh > On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 01:42:15AM +0100, Robert Fitzsimons wrote: > > Hello Leigh > > > > Sounds like a good idea. Would you be willing to making the initial > > contact? I haven't seen much activity recently (ever), and I'm more > > interested in the a development role. > > It's odd that they posted there, as they did send me an email too :) > > Anyway, I have been slacking on this for a while, so if someone wants to > volunteer to take this company on, that would be great. I can forward > you my email thread with them, and introduce you to them. > > Any volunteers? > > thanks, > > greg k-h From greg at kroah.com Fri Aug 3 05:34:20 2007 From: greg at kroah.com (Greg KH) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 22:34:20 -0700 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <46B27DC2.31989.18EFC48@w3nlb.amsat.org> References: <20070803035746.GA2054@kroah.com> <46B27DC2.31989.18EFC48@w3nlb.amsat.org> Message-ID: <20070803053420.GA12724@kroah.com> On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 12:58:42AM -0400, w3nlb at amsat.org wrote: > Hi Greg, > > My concern with this one is that it's extremely high-tech. These > guys are presenting papers about supercomputers and such. Heh, this is all "high tech" :) > Testing would require significant resources in the form of RF signal > generators and possibly protocol simulators. I expect their > frequency range would exceed 20 GHz. I think they are willing to do the major testing, the driver should be pretty tiny, just a shim to get access to the device from userspace. thanks, greg k-h From robfitz at 273k.net Fri Aug 3 09:38:36 2007 From: robfitz at 273k.net (Robert Fitzsimons) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:38:36 +0100 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070803053420.GA12724@kroah.com> References: <20070803035746.GA2054@kroah.com> <46B27DC2.31989.18EFC48@w3nlb.amsat.org> <20070803053420.GA12724@kroah.com> Message-ID: <20070803093836.GD26235@localhost> > > Testing would require significant resources in the form of RF signal > > generators and possibly protocol simulators. I expect their > > frequency range would exceed 20 GHz. > > I think they are willing to do the major testing, the driver should be > pretty tiny, just a shim to get access to the device from userspace. I have an amateur radio license, a few VHF/UHF transceivers and a USRP board (gnuradio), so I think I would be in the position to do some basic testing. P.S. I'm based in Dublin, Ireland. Robert From w3nlb at amsat.org Fri Aug 3 18:07:48 2007 From: w3nlb at amsat.org (w3nlb at amsat.org) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:07:48 -0400 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070803093836.GD26235@localhost> References: <20070803035746.GA2054@kroah.com>, <20070803053420.GA12724@kroah.com>, <20070803093836.GD26235@localhost> Message-ID: <46B336B4.12000.8C7C2@w3nlb.amsat.org> Hi All, I have access to a lab with signal generators that go up to 50 GHz. These include protocol emulation for some emission types used in the microwave range. Access time would be limited. It would certainly be better if the OEM could do the testing. This brings up a question of development specs. Does the OEM have appropriate documentation, including functional specs and test specs, that we could review? What about acceptance testing and project sign-off? Leigh > > > Testing would require significant resources in the form of RF signal > > > generators and possibly protocol simulators. I expect their > > > frequency range would exceed 20 GHz. > > > > I think they are willing to do the major testing, the driver should be > > pretty tiny, just a shim to get access to the device from userspace. > > I have an amateur radio license, a few VHF/UHF transceivers and a USRP > board (gnuradio), so I think I would be in the position to do some basic > testing. > > P.S. I'm based in Dublin, Ireland. > > Robert From robfitz at 273k.net Sat Aug 4 00:03:44 2007 From: robfitz at 273k.net (Robert Fitzsimons) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 01:03:44 +0100 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <46B336B4.12000.8C7C2@w3nlb.amsat.org> References: <20070803093836.GD26235@localhost> <46B336B4.12000.8C7C2@w3nlb.amsat.org> Message-ID: <20070804000343.GF26235@localhost> > This brings up a question of development specs. Does the OEM have > appropriate documentation, including functional specs and test specs, > that we could review? Shouldn't we just ask them? ;) Robert From josef.assad at gmail.com Mon Aug 6 08:10:08 2007 From: josef.assad at gmail.com (Josef Assad) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 04:10:08 -0400 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <46B27DC2.31989.18EFC48@w3nlb.amsat.org> References: <20070802112440.GD32733@localhost> <20070803004215.GC26235@localhost> <20070803035746.GA2054@kroah.com> <46B27DC2.31989.18EFC48@w3nlb.amsat.org> Message-ID: <20070806041008.5274789b@localhost> Morning folks. I've done a slight update to the status page: http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ProjectStatus Has anyone picked this one up? J On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 00:58:42 -0400 w3nlb at amsat.org wrote: > Hi Greg, > > My concern with this one is that it's extremely high-tech. These > guys are presenting papers about supercomputers and such. > > Testing would require significant resources in the form of RF signal > generators and possibly protocol simulators. I expect their > frequency range would exceed 20 GHz. > > This is a pretty potent environment. > > I'm familiar with the technology and the end-user products, and I > have significant expertise in RF environments. > > That's why I'm worried about the project. > > Leigh > > > > On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 01:42:15AM +0100, Robert Fitzsimons wrote: > > > Hello Leigh > > > > > > Sounds like a good idea. Would you be willing to making the > > > initial contact? I haven't seen much activity recently (ever), > > > and I'm more interested in the a development role. > > > > It's odd that they posted there, as they did send me an email too :) > > > > Anyway, I have been slacking on this for a while, so if someone > > wants to volunteer to take this company on, that would be great. I > > can forward you my email thread with them, and introduce you to > > them. > > > > Any volunteers? > > > > thanks, > > > > greg k-h > > > _______________________________________________ > prjmgr mailing list > prjmgr at linuxdriverproject.org > http://driverdev.linuxdriverproject.org/mailman/listinfo/prjmgr > From robfitz at 273k.net Thu Aug 9 21:51:05 2007 From: robfitz at 273k.net (Robert Fitzsimons) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 22:51:05 +0100 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070806041008.5274789b@localhost> References: <20070802112440.GD32733@localhost> <20070803004215.GC26235@localhost> <20070803035746.GA2054@kroah.com> <46B27DC2.31989.18EFC48@w3nlb.amsat.org> <20070806041008.5274789b@localhost> Message-ID: <20070809215105.GB6100@localhost> > Has anyone picked this one up? I'm not sure I'll express an interest in working on it as a developer. Robert From w3nlb at amsat.org Fri Aug 10 02:10:41 2007 From: w3nlb at amsat.org (w3nlb at amsat.org) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 22:10:41 -0400 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070809215105.GB6100@localhost> References: <20070802112440.GD32733@localhost>, <20070806041008.5274789b@localhost>, <20070809215105.GB6100@localhost> Message-ID: <46BB90E1.26082.15287A3@w3nlb.amsat.org> Hi All, I'll pick up the management side of this if nobody else wants it. Hate to see an orphan project ;-) How do we proceed? This is my first one. Thanks. Leigh > > Has anyone picked this one up? > > I'm not sure I'll express an interest in working on it as a developer. > > Robert > > _______________________________________________ > prjmgr mailing list > prjmgr at linuxdriverproject.org > http://driverdev.linuxdriverproject.org/mailman/listinfo/prjmgr From robfitz at 273k.net Fri Aug 10 08:56:54 2007 From: robfitz at 273k.net (Robert Fitzsimons) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:56:54 +0100 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <46BB90E1.26082.15287A3@w3nlb.amsat.org> References: <20070809215105.GB6100@localhost> <46BB90E1.26082.15287A3@w3nlb.amsat.org> Message-ID: <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost> Hi Leigh > How do we proceed? Greg said he had some limited contact with them before by email. So I think the fist step is try to and follow on from those emails. I think the main thing I would need to get started would be more information on the current user applications, functional specifications and detailed datasheets for the device(s). Hardware access would be nice but isn't an initial requirement. > This is my first one. Me too. :) Robert From o.cornu at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 11:20:09 2007 From: o.cornu at gmail.com (Olivier Cornu) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:20:09 +0200 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost> References: <20070809215105.GB6100@localhost> <46BB90E1.26082.15287A3@w3nlb.amsat.org> <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost> Message-ID: <7b4bf7ff0708100420u4e05278ayec44a81d9986cc65@mail.gmail.com> Hi, 2007/8/10, Robert Fitzsimons : > > > How do we proceed? > > I think the main thing I would need to get started would be more > information on the current user applications, functional specifications > and detailed datasheets for the device(s). Hardware access would be > nice but isn't an initial requirement. Somehow I lack the beginning of the discussion (did it start off-list?), thus i'm not really sure what kind of device we're talking about here. Anyway, i'm a developer waiting for an assignment, so if you need me you can count me in. :) Olivier Cornu PS: Will be away for the week-end. From robfitz at 273k.net Fri Aug 10 11:26:04 2007 From: robfitz at 273k.net (Robert Fitzsimons) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:26:04 +0100 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <7b4bf7ff0708100420u4e05278ayec44a81d9986cc65@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070809215105.GB6100@localhost> <46BB90E1.26082.15287A3@w3nlb.amsat.org> <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost> <7b4bf7ff0708100420u4e05278ayec44a81d9986cc65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070810112603.GA11480@localhost> Hello Olivier > Somehow I lack the beginning of the discussion (did it start > off-list?), thus i'm not really sure what kind of device we're talking > about here. I noticed this last week. http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ProjectManager > Anyway, i'm a developer waiting for an assignment, so if you need me > you can count me in. :) Welcome on board. Robert From w3nlb at amsat.org Fri Aug 10 16:08:19 2007 From: w3nlb at amsat.org (w3nlb at amsat.org) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:08:19 -0400 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost> References: <20070809215105.GB6100@localhost>, <46BB90E1.26082.15287A3@w3nlb.amsat.org>, <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost> Message-ID: <46BC5533.11609.22F443D@w3nlb.amsat.org> Hi All, I agree. Documentation is needed. Greg thinks this will just be a shim. Greg: Could you please provide copies of your previous correspondence with this client and an example of a "shim" that we could use as a pattern for this effort? A pointer into LDD 4th would suffice if an example is presented there. Robert: Could you please send me a short CV and let me know what your strengths are, what language(s) you prefer, etc., and any comments you think relevant. And a general assessment of your productivity would be of interest... 10 lines/day, 100, 1000, 10000??? How much time could you expect to devote to the project per week? The next step should be to define the scope of effort and determine whether additional resources are required. Since Greg has an idea of the type of driver required, perhaps he could provide a reasonable effort of the time/effort required to write same. I should contact the client, picking up that conversation where Greg left off. I'd like to get our preliminaries out of the way so I can make that contact by Monday 20 August. What about source code management? There has been some chaos in the kernel tree over this particular subject. What is the current standard? Are we obliged to use it for our development work? I think our detailed correspondence regarding the project would best be done off-list, among Greg and the participants, which at present appear to be Robert and myself. Add Josef to the list. I don't know whether he's a participant or a cheer leader ;-) But his help and advice are certainly welcome in either role. Suggestions, comments, ??? Thank you very much. Leigh > > Hi Leigh > > > How do we proceed? > > Greg said he had some limited contact with them before by email. So I > think the fist step is try to and follow on from those emails. > > I think the main thing I would need to get started would be more > information on the current user applications, functional specifications > and detailed datasheets for the device(s). Hardware access would be > nice but isn't an initial requirement. > > > This is my first one. > > Me too. :) > > Robert From josef.assad at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 16:32:50 2007 From: josef.assad at gmail.com (Josef Assad) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:32:50 -0400 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <46BC5533.11609.22F443D@w3nlb.amsat.org> References: <20070809215105.GB6100@localhost> <46BB90E1.26082.15287A3@w3nlb.amsat.org> <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost> <46BC5533.11609.22F443D@w3nlb.amsat.org> Message-ID: <20070810123250.490620ee@localhost> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:08:19 -0400 w3nlb at amsat.org wrote: > Hi All, > > I agree. Documentation is needed. > > Greg thinks this will just be a shim. > > Greg: > Could you please provide copies of your previous correspondence with > this client and an example of a "shim" that we could use as a pattern > for this effort? A pointer into LDD 4th would suffice if an example > is presented there. Would be good if we expose as much of this first project as possible such that us other managers and developers can harmonize the experience the OEMs see. > Robert: > Could you please send me a short CV and let me know what your > strengths are, what language(s) you prefer, etc., and any comments > you think relevant. Short being the operative word here :) Can we also have other developers shout out (in a separate thread)? Good to know who's on board and what they'd prefer to bang on! > The next step should be to define the scope of effort and determine > whether additional resources are required. Just playing devil's advocate, not being a backseat driver I promise! To avoid Greg becoming a bottleneck, would it make sense to ask Robert to give this estimate? As he begins working on it, a rough idea should emerge on whether he needs help or not. We're all doing this for free; in my experience, heavy scoping is usually most useful in determining financial budgets. Feel free to tell me to get my nose out of it! Just thinking aloud. > I think our detailed correspondence regarding the project would best > be done off-list, among Greg and the participants, which at present > appear to be Robert and myself. Add Josef to the list. I don't know > whether he's a participant or a cheer leader ;-) But his help and > advice are certainly welcome in either role. I am not pretty enough to be a cheerleader. :) If you want me shoulder surfing I'm happy to oblige. I'll pick up the next project that comes along, and you can shoulder surf me there. > Suggestions, comments, ??? Is the project page on the wiki useful at all? http://linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ProjectStatus > Thank you very much. > > Leigh Cheers, J -- The Banjo Players Must Die! http://www.archive.org/details/JosefAssad_TheBanjoPlayersMustDie e-mail: josef.assad at gmail.com url: http://www.DonAssad.com skype ID: josef.assad From w3nlb at amsat.org Fri Aug 10 19:18:44 2007 From: w3nlb at amsat.org (w3nlb at amsat.org) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:18:44 -0400 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070810123250.490620ee@localhost> References: <20070809215105.GB6100@localhost>, <46BC5533.11609.22F443D@w3nlb.amsat.org>, <20070810123250.490620ee@localhost> Message-ID: <46BC81D4.26065.2DDA01A@w3nlb.amsat.org> Hi Josef, > Would be good if we expose as much of this first project as possible > such that us other managers and developers can harmonize the experience > the OEMs see. Agreed. However, many (most) OEMs are accustomed to a high degree of privacy as regards their product development. I certainly think visibility of our processes for the benefit of others in our group is quite desirable. But I believe the client's information should be held rather closely. If other clients view a highly detailed account it might discourage their participation. > Can we also have other > developers shout out (in a separate thread)? Good to know who's on > board and what they'd prefer to bang on! Good take. > Just playing devil's advocate, not being a backseat driver I promise! > To avoid Greg becoming a bottleneck, would it make sense to ask Robert > to give this estimate? As he begins working on it, a rough idea should > emerge on whether he needs help or not. I agree that the whole purpose of our organization is to relieve Greg from many of the detail tasks. He certainly has enough other things to do. However, in this case he has already made contact with the client, and he has extensive experience writing drivers, so his assessment of the level of effort required would be much more accurate than one provided by any of us. It is certainly my intent to proceed with the project independently, just providing status and progress info to Gregg for his edification. > We're all doing this for free; in my experience, heavy scoping is > usually most useful in determining financial budgets. My experience (over 25 years of consulting and over 50 successful projects) has shown that engineering managers want schedules which they can present to their management. Whether they're working with inhouse assets, contracted services, or freebies, the boss wants to know when the project will be done. Everyone realizes that this is a "labor of love" ("labour" for our British friends), and we're not going to enrich any pizza franchises with our efforts. But a reasonable level of professionalism should be expected from any effort, whether paid or pro bono. > I am not pretty enough to be a cheerleader. :) If you want me shoulder > surfing I'm happy to oblige. I'll pick up the next project that comes > along, and you can shoulder surf me there. Darn ;-) Of course your shoulder surfing is most welcome. I can use all the help I can get. Since we're in the earliest stages of something which might become quite large, I think it's well to establish some guidelines to assure a uniform approach, with the goal of having happy clients who come back with more projects. My primary concern lies in scheduling. Schedule slippage and the potential loss of resources must be acknowledged and dealt with in the early discussions with the client. We've all been through this scene, so there are no surprises lurking under the rug. But promising everything and delivering nothing is a great way to turn off clients. We must make realistic commitments and meet them. Thanks very much. Leigh From robfitz at 273k.net Fri Aug 10 19:59:32 2007 From: robfitz at 273k.net (Robert Fitzsimons) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:59:32 +0100 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <46BC5533.11609.22F443D@w3nlb.amsat.org> References: <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost> <46BC5533.11609.22F443D@w3nlb.amsat.org> Message-ID: <20070810195932.GC11480@localhost> > Could you please send me a short CV and let me know what your > strengths are I'll revert to my opening email on the dev list: http://driverdev.linuxdriverproject.org/pipermail/devel/2007-July/000000.html To add to that I've about 10 years working in the IT field, in roles that have involved combinations of programming, system/network administration, hardware installation, etc. I've been involved in all stages of different projects including design, implementation and maintenance. With positions from junior programmer through to team lead. To give a weakness. Even though I'm a native English speaker my written English (grammar/spelling) can be very bad sometimes. > what language(s) you prefer The only one that really counts for Linux kernel development is C, you could also add familiarity with assembler, makefiles, and shell scripting as useful skills. I've got all these covered. > And a general assessment of your productivity > would be of interest... 10 lines/day, 100, 1000, 10000??? Lines/day is the wrong way to evaluate a developers productivity, and not relevant for this type of project. We need to remember who the customer is and what the final product is. The customer is the general Linux using community which includes the hardware manufacture and its customers. The final product is a longterm maintainable driver that is merged into Linux's tree. The standards for code and design for inclusion in the Linux kernel are extremely high, a functional drive that has just been thrown together will not cut it. > How much time could you expect to devote to the project per week? I would hope to be able to spend a couple of evenings a week, time over weekends, etc. I would imagine that many developers work in spurts and might spend a couple nights working long hours with gaps in between. If the documentation is open, small groups of developers can coordinate the division of work into smaller more manageable tasks. I think the role of the prjmgr's for LDP is to help get the each project off the ground, with a small group of developers if needed/possible. Act as a communications channel between the developers and manufacture. Then periodically touch base with the developers and keep the hardware manufacture and general community informed of the progress. If problems occur with time or other resources they should try and resolve them by changing/adding developers, contacting the manufacture, etc. > The next step should be to define the scope of effort and determine > whether additional resources are required. Since Greg has an idea of > the type of driver required, perhaps he could provide a reasonable > effort of the time/effort required to write same. This is a very difficult task for me and imagine the same for Greg. On code that I'm familiar with it might only be minutes or hours to make a change but for someone unfamiliar withe code it could take days, weeks or even months. To give an up in the air guess. I would have to say a month, but I'm almost always wrong (short and long) with these types of guesses. Also we don't have a true understanding of the requirements. > What about source code management? There has been some chaos in the > kernel tree over this particular subject. What is the current > standard? Are we obliged to use it for our development work? I would imagine project specific git trees are the way to go. > I think our detailed correspondence regarding the project would best > be done off-list Actually we should try and conduct everything in the open if possible, protecting the contact details of manufacture staff would be very reasonable, etc. Also if the full datasheets can't be made available to the public, we should at least try for custom versions which include just the information needed to write and maintain the drivers. Robert From w3nlb at amsat.org Fri Aug 10 20:13:53 2007 From: w3nlb at amsat.org (w3nlb at amsat.org) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:13:53 -0400 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070810195932.GC11480@localhost> References: <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost>, <46BC5533.11609.22F443D@w3nlb.amsat.org>, <20070810195932.GC11480@localhost> Message-ID: <46BC8EC1.2336.3101F9B@w3nlb.amsat.org> Hi Robert, > The only one that really counts for Linux kernel development is C, you > could also add familiarity with assembler, makefiles, and shell > scripting as useful skills. I've got all these covered. Of course the development would be done in C. I don't think anybody wants to do any development in assembler, but knowledge of it can be essential to efficient debugging of the compiler output. > Lines/day is the wrong way to evaluate a developers productivity, and > not relevant for this type of project. That was a joke. 10,000??? > We need to remember who the customer is and what the final product is. > The customer is the general Linux using community which includes the > hardware manufacture and its customers. The final product is a longterm > maintainable driver that is merged into Linux's tree. > > The standards for code and design for inclusion in the Linux kernel are > extremely high, a functional drive that has just been thrown together > will not cut it. Obviously. My background is in very high reliability systems. I wrote the guidance and control system and the launch control system for the Pegasus rocket. Zero failures and there's never been a bug report filed against my software. I also wrote a package for IBM used by the state of Florida by 8,000 users 24/7. There's never been a bug report filed against that code either. > I would hope to be able to spend a couple of evenings a week, time over > weekends, etc. I would imagine that many developers work in spurts and > might spend a couple nights working long hours with gaps in between. > > If the documentation is open, small groups of developers can coordinate > the division of work into smaller more manageable tasks. That's probably a reasonable average for this type of task. I hadn't thought in terms of dividing the effort on this particular project, since Greg seems to think that it's pretty simple. But that's certainly an option for more complex endeavors. > I think the role of the prjmgr's for LDP is to help get the each project > off the ground, with a small group of developers if needed/possible. > Act as a communications channel between the developers and manufacture. > Then periodically touch base with the developers and keep the hardware > manufacture and general community informed of the progress. If problems > occur with time or other resources they should try and resolve them by > changing/adding developers, contacting the manufacture, etc. Agreed. > This is a very difficult task for me and imagine the same for Greg. On > code that I'm familiar with it might only be minutes or hours to make a > change but for someone unfamiliar withe code it could take days, weeks > or even months. > > To give an up in the air guess. I would have to say a month, but I'm > almost always wrong (short and long) with these types of guesses. Also > we don't have a true understanding of the requirements. It's the most difficult task for anyone involved in software development. Even when the level of effort and the specs are well- known, it's almost impossible to provide accurate estimtes. I think the major concern on this one will be in the testing phase. We will probably rely on the client to do most of this, and that brings up a lot of coordination issues. But that's my problem ;-) > Actually we should try and conduct everything in the open if possible, > protecting the contact details of manufacture staff would be very > reasonable, etc. Also if the full datasheets can't be made available to > the public, we should at least try for custom versions which include > just the information needed to write and maintain the drivers. Product information is on the client's website. I expect they'll hold their internal API and command set as proprietary. Not a big deal. Let's see what Greg can add to the discussion. Thanks. Leigh From josef.assad at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 20:20:02 2007 From: josef.assad at gmail.com (Josef Assad) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:20:02 -0400 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070810195932.GC11480@localhost> References: <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost> <46BC5533.11609.22F443D@w3nlb.amsat.org> <20070810195932.GC11480@localhost> Message-ID: <20070810162002.34463b2c@localhost> On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:59:32 +0100 Robert Fitzsimons wrote: > To give a weakness. Even though I'm a native English speaker my > written English (grammar/spelling) can be very bad sometimes. My C is probably orders of magnitude worse than your English! :) > I think the role of the prjmgr's for LDP is to help get the each > project off the ground, with a small group of developers if > needed/possible. Act as a communications channel between the > developers and manufacture. Then periodically touch base with the > developers and keep the hardware manufacture and general community > informed of the progress. If problems occur with time or other > resources they should try and resolve them by changing/adding > developers, contacting the manufacture, etc. Cool. I acknowledge that the developers are the real stars in this game, so I'm glad to hear how you see us managers making your lives easier. > > The next step should be to define the scope of effort and determine > > whether additional resources are required. Since Greg has an idea > > of the type of driver required, perhaps he could provide a > > reasonable effort of the time/effort required to write same. > > This is a very difficult task for me and imagine the same for Greg. > On code that I'm familiar with it might only be minutes or hours to > make a change but for someone unfamiliar withe code it could take > days, weeks or even months. Which is where it might make sense to let you give estimates once you're ramped up. Hear ya, and entirely in agreement. > To give an up in the air guess. I would have to say a month, but I'm > almost always wrong (short and long) with these types of guesses. > Also we don't have a true understanding of the requirements. Yes, Red River lists quite a few devices. We still need a handle on what the precise expectations are. > > I think our detailed correspondence regarding the project would > > best be done off-list > > Actually we should try and conduct everything in the open if possible, > protecting the contact details of manufacture staff would be very > reasonable, etc. Also if the full datasheets can't be made available > to the public, we should at least try for custom versions which > include just the information needed to write and maintain the drivers. I do agree that as much as possible needs to be in the open. I had an experience in late 2006 with a project where both the vendor and the client were jumping into an open source community driven project for the first time. We had two channels of communication: a closed one and the community mailing lists. I had recommended as a guideline back then that the criterion for what discussion goes where was simply this: if it is boring project administrative, it goes to the private. All else goes to the public list. It's worked well. Again, this is one of these areas where the project manager will be useful: building the understanding on the OEM side of the value of keeping communication in the open, and - in the cases where there is information to be protected - acting as the gatekeeper between making use of this data and keeping it from general circulation in a manner not acceptable to the OEM. > Robert J > _______________________________________________ > prjmgr mailing list > prjmgr at linuxdriverproject.org > http://driverdev.linuxdriverproject.org/mailman/listinfo/prjmgr > -- The Banjo Players Must Die! http://www.archive.org/details/JosefAssad_TheBanjoPlayersMustDie e-mail: josef.assad at gmail.com url: http://www.DonAssad.com skype ID: josef.assad From robfitz at 273k.net Sat Aug 25 22:07:48 2007 From: robfitz at 273k.net (Robert Fitzsimons) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 23:07:48 +0100 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <46BC5533.11609.22F443D@w3nlb.amsat.org> References: <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost> <46BC5533.11609.22F443D@w3nlb.amsat.org> Message-ID: <20070825220748.GA32168@localhost> > I should contact the client, picking up that conversation where Greg > left off. I'd like to get our preliminaries out of the way so I can > make that contact by Monday 20 August. Any update? Robert From w3nlb at amsat.org Sun Aug 26 01:20:08 2007 From: w3nlb at amsat.org (w3nlb at amsat.org) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 21:20:08 -0400 Subject: Posible project In-Reply-To: <20070825220748.GA32168@localhost> References: <20070810085654.GC6100@localhost>, <46BC5533.11609.22F443D@w3nlb.amsat.org>, <20070825220748.GA32168@localhost> Message-ID: <46D09D08.163.60B4B@w3nlb.amsat.org> Hi Robert, I was waiting for input from Gregg, which has not happened. Basically on hold awaiting further info before I contact the client. Leigh > > I should contact the client, picking up that conversation where Greg > > left off. I'd like to get our preliminaries out of the way so I can > > make that contact by Monday 20 August. > > Any update? > > Robert